Not sure I understand her point about how this part of the book showcases Dostoevsky’s anti-utilitarianism. Isn’t Ivan’s concern over just one child’s suffering sort of anti-utilitarian? Or at least it doesn’t seem to relate to utilitarianism much at all. The way I read this episode is rather another instantiation of Dostoevsky’s concern with how all are guilty for all, and how love is the most important thing for brotherly union on earth.
Ivan acts as though God is to blame for allowing the sins of mankind to unfold in mistreatment of the innocent; this attitude is exactly what allows for the mistreatment of the innocent—shifting responsibility instead of taking responsibility on oneself to love others. Recall that Ivan says he has trouble loving particular people, but can rationalize about humanity in the abstract and love it all day long. Ivan’s rationalism and lack of active, particular love (as manifest in following scenes w Smerdyakov and father) is a clear full circle: he claims God is to blame for mistreatment of the innocent, when really he himself is guilty.
This is opposite Zosima/Alyosha’s philosophy that all individuals are guilty for all, and that the answer in the face of human horror is to take responsibility by enacting brotherly love on all, even the weakest of creatures, every day. Hence why Alyosha does not respond to Ivan much—this is more a critique on tendencies to shift blame away from the self through Western rationalism and abstraction of “humanity” as a category. Alyosha not responding to Ivan’s criticisms and merely kissing him after Grand Inquisitor is exactly this philosophy: Alyosha doesn’t blame or criticize his brother Ivan for how he thinks and rebels against God; instead, he merely loves him.
If I could ever describe the Grand Inquisitor the way Liza has in ten minutes! That would truly be a glorious day. I love how you pointed out how the GI got some of his color back after Christ kissed him on the lips, showing his humanity! I overlooked that.
Hi. Just joined. Downloaded the book on my kindle. Starting reading!
Welcome Stephanie!!
I just joined and will start reading it tonight. Any news on how this works is much appreciated
Welcome board! Definitely check out this FAQ page on structure, format, etc:
https://athenaeumbooks.com/p/how-to-join-the-book-club
Very interesting discussion of a great book.
Great discussion! Thank you!
Not sure I understand her point about how this part of the book showcases Dostoevsky’s anti-utilitarianism. Isn’t Ivan’s concern over just one child’s suffering sort of anti-utilitarian? Or at least it doesn’t seem to relate to utilitarianism much at all. The way I read this episode is rather another instantiation of Dostoevsky’s concern with how all are guilty for all, and how love is the most important thing for brotherly union on earth.
Ivan acts as though God is to blame for allowing the sins of mankind to unfold in mistreatment of the innocent; this attitude is exactly what allows for the mistreatment of the innocent—shifting responsibility instead of taking responsibility on oneself to love others. Recall that Ivan says he has trouble loving particular people, but can rationalize about humanity in the abstract and love it all day long. Ivan’s rationalism and lack of active, particular love (as manifest in following scenes w Smerdyakov and father) is a clear full circle: he claims God is to blame for mistreatment of the innocent, when really he himself is guilty.
This is opposite Zosima/Alyosha’s philosophy that all individuals are guilty for all, and that the answer in the face of human horror is to take responsibility by enacting brotherly love on all, even the weakest of creatures, every day. Hence why Alyosha does not respond to Ivan much—this is more a critique on tendencies to shift blame away from the self through Western rationalism and abstraction of “humanity” as a category. Alyosha not responding to Ivan’s criticisms and merely kissing him after Grand Inquisitor is exactly this philosophy: Alyosha doesn’t blame or criticize his brother Ivan for how he thinks and rebels against God; instead, he merely loves him.
I also disagree with her equating the examples Ivan gives of children suffering as being examples of socialism. Several logical leaps there.
If I could ever describe the Grand Inquisitor the way Liza has in ten minutes! That would truly be a glorious day. I love how you pointed out how the GI got some of his color back after Christ kissed him on the lips, showing his humanity! I overlooked that.
Yes, thank you for the recordings